Syed Husin Ali’s last formal interview (Part 2)

Upright public intellectual, pioneering social science scholar and resolute fighter for justice

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Syed Husin Ali, interviewed by Cecilia Ng and Diana Wong/Southeast Asian Social Science Review

Merger of Parti Rakyat with Parti Keadilan Nasional

Cecilia Ng: You mentioned the PKR congress at which Anwar [Ibrahim] is president. Now, can you give some insights into the merger of your party, Parti Rakyat, with Parti Keadilan Nasional, to become Parti Keadilaan Rakyat (PKR)?

Syed Husin Ali: After a few years [during my time as] president of Parti Rakyat, the Anwar incident, his clash with [Dr] Mahathir [Mahathir] happened. He [Anwar] got sacked from his party, Umno, and from his post as deputy prime minister. Then he got arrested and detained.

And from prison, he wrote me a number of letters – letters which he managed to smuggle out, asking me to persuade my party, Parti Rakyat, to merge with Keadilan, at that time [known as Parti] Keadilan Nasional.

We discussed several times in the party [Parti Rakyat]. It was only after three meetings of the congress of the party that we decided finally to work together with Keadilan.

Anwar was still in detention then. So his wife, Wan Azizah [Wan Ismail] became president of the party, Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR), which was a combination of Parti Keadilan Nasional and Parti Rakyat. And I was deputy president – for about seven years. And when I stepped down, Azmin Ali took over.

I left because I wanted a younger person to continue with the struggle. And also, of course, I wanted to do some writing. In fact, during the first two years of my leaving the deputy presidency, I managed to write three or four books and translate them. One of the books I wrote was my memoirs, and then one on Malay rulers, and also ethnic harmony and conflict, and a few others.

CN: Why do you think Anwar asked Party Rakyat to join with Keadilan? Because I know some of us were against it.

SHA: True, most of our members were against it.

With regard to Anwar, firstly, he knew me well during detention. We were in detention together for two years – the same kawasanor block for two years. We discussed a lot, and I think he understood that I was sincere in my views. That was the first reason.

The second reason, which he explained in one of his letters to me…. He said, “Now look, Parti Rakyat has got experience for many years as a fighter for independence and anti-imperialism and all that, but it has no base.

“On the other hand, we (Keadilan) have just been formed, not ideologically strong, but we have a very strong base. So why don’t we merge these two strengths?”

So, after we had merged and we wrote the constitution of the party, he practically left it to Party Rakyat to write the purpose and objectives – the 18-point thing – and it was accepted. So, this shows that he agreed with the ideas which we discussed in detention.

After the merger of Keadilan Nasional with Party Rakyat, it became Parti Keadilan Rakyat.

Diana Wong: Which brings us to the question, how do you see the future of Keadilan or PKR? And of course, of Pakatan Harapan (PH), which comprises PKR, DAP and Amanah?

SHA: I think often about it. There is a problem now about polarisation – ethnically and religiously. And because of the success of the Perikatan Nasional (PN) in using religion and race, they are able to attract a large number of Muslims, Malays and also youths.

Of course, as you know, the youth and even the middle class are very heavily influenced by religious and ethnic factors. So that becomes a question mark and a great challenge to PH.

However, PH is still quite strong. Although it’s strongly undermined by PN, particularly allegations from Pas that DAP is making use of Keadilan, it is still quite strong. They make wild allegation that the Chinese DAP are “communists”, make use of or menunggang (riding on) Keadilan and PH, that Anwar is being made use of by DAP, which they say is Chinese and communist.

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This has an effect on the masses. So, in fact, we had a very long discussion about the elections in our political bureau and I made some suggestions on what should be done in order to regain the confidence of the Malays. And we can regain that.

We need to get 40% of the Malay votes. In the last state election, there was an increase in Malay support, an increase from 15% to 25%, but that is not enough. We need to have at least 40% in order to preserve the seats that we have lost….

CN: So what should be the strategy?

SHA: Well, we are happy that we still retain the three states, but I emphasised in our discussions that although we retained the states and although our Malay support increased…. we also lost many seats.

So, we have to study this very closely and overcome it. We acknowledge there are shortcomings and there is a lot to do. But as I said, the emotional attachment to religion and race is still strong.

CN: Back to the communist bogey… Why is this communist bogey so powerful still after so many years?

SHA: Because among the Malays, it has been drummed into their heads that communism is anti-Islam, and the Malays, Malay Muslims, are in a sense very conservative. And because of that, any perceived threat against Islam and Malays, the latter oppose right on.

CN: This has been drummed into them by the school system or in the mosques? Where?

SHA: The system itself, right from the time of the British, among the Muslim groups and until now. So, when it is in the system, it’s also the personalities involved with running the system who preach it in the mosque and in the schools.

And in our meeting, it was pointed out that probably one of the reasons why the youth are also opposed to PH is because of some of the teachers. Some of these teachers are not only religious teachers, but the Malay school teachers who are very religious-orientated and ethnically biased.

DW: How did it develop this way?

SHA: Religion and race are emotional matters – matters of the heart – and emotional matters move much more easily in a person than, let’s say, economic or material issues.

So, while you bring in economic development, or you manage to bring down the prices of things, it’s not as important as doing something positive for Islam and the Malays.

The prejudice against the Chinese is very strong. The Chinese feeling that they are not treated well and equally in Malaysia is also very strong.

Islam among Malays in Malaysia is of a conservative nature. The influence of reformists, modernists and anti-imperialist Muslim thinkers – such as Muhammad Abduh, a leading reformist in Egypt in the late 19th Century – is not much felt here.

CN: So, there’s no way to reform the system?

SHA: The education system doesn’t help. Well, it must be a strong government with strong support to change the education system itself.

Those who run the education system have to initiate a change. If you don’t have that, susah (difficult).

Future scenario

DW: So how do you see the future scenario?

SHA: The future? I mentioned as well that the problem of race is the polarisation, increased polarisation. I suppose in a way you can say that it was a failure of the left – that the left did not succeed.

DW: And now there’s no longer the left. First it was the failure of the left. We look back on it like Paradise Lost. And the left was weakened.

But maybe the left was also not able to understand and appreciate the power of religion, of matters of the heart. Because the left thought that if they were to sort out the economic issues, that would be enough.

READ MORE:  Syed Husin Ali's last formal interview (Part 1)

SHA: That was why we had this Ulama Group. It is very necessary to understand Islam. To read the text, to discuss and to provide a more modernist angle.

But the moment you talk about modernism and Islam, you are condemned that is not Islam but a deviation from true Islam. And true Islam to them is the conservative Islam.

CN: Would you have written more about Islam if you had remained in academia?

SHA: Probably, yeah.

DW: But Anwar himself comes out as a moderate.

SHA: Yes, he is. He is definitely moderate and also modernist in his way. But he faces challenges.

Passion for writing

CN: Should there have been a third career for you – which one? A poet? A writer?

SHA: I am not a poet. A writer. Yeah, right, yes.

CN: You chose to be a politician out of a sense of responsibility.

SHA: You know, after I left university and joined politics I practically did not write. So, that’s why, after seven years, I said I must leave my position as deputy president of Parti Keadilan Rakyat in order to resume my writing.

That’s why I said just now, immediately after I left, within the two, three years after I left, I wrote a number of books. But they were not entirely political and not entirely sociological. Well, the books on the Malays and on the Malay rulers are quite sociological. And the book on ethnic relations is quite sociological.

CN: I remember you said to us that there were still some things that you did not say, that you did not write about in your memoirs.

SHA: Oh, yeah. Some political experiences and some personal experiences. One, it was not necessary at that juncture, and two, the book was getting too big already. It was not entirely an autobiography – because if it was an autobiography, I wouldn’t have concentrated so much on the political development of the party and the society itself. That, as I said, was my second half of the book.

DW: Maybe a question about your writing, your academic writing. You wrote extensively?

SHA: My academic writing was not as much, actually, as my popular writing. The popular writing was mainly in newspapers.

Yes, I wrote extensively in newspapers. You know, especially, at that time, Utusan Melayu had Utusan Pemuda. I was practically a shadow editor of Utusan Pemuda. And I wrote a lot in Utusan Pemuda. More than once a week. And at the same time, in Utusan Melayu too, I had many articles.

So, most of my writings were in newspapers. But at the same time, of course, there were some academic articles and some books.

CN: Tell us first about your popular writings. What were the themes that you wrote about?

SHA: The themes mainly arose from what type of news that happened – be it on political issues, economic or social issues, or with education.

So, I wrote on all things, on education, economy, politics and all that. I wrote such things in those days in the 60s, and also, to a certain extent, the 70s.

Then when I started being a lecturer in 1962, from then on, I began to write my masters, later my PhD. And after I left the university and joined party politics, I hardly wrote.

I began to write again after leaving politics. And most of those articles were of a popular, semi-academic nature, because I wanted them to be read widely. Even so, these books don’t sell well.

My best-selling book was, of course, Dua Wajah, my memoir about the prisoner years. It went to five prints, and royalty of about RM80,000 from that book. This car I have was bought from the royalty of Dua Wajah.

DW: Who published Dua Wajah?

SHA: I published it. Because of that, I received a big amount of royalty.

READ MORE:  Syed Husin Ali's last formal interview (Part 1)

My worst book, in terms of royalty, was when I only got RM200. I think it was the revised edition on Malay Rulers published by Gerakbudaya.

Well, my last book was Sejarah Rakyat Malaysia in Malay, and its translation, The People’s History of Malaysia.

Actually, I wanted to develop that into a bigger and more academic writing. I was preparing to go to London and other places to look for materials.

Then came Covid-19 pandemic and I couldn’t travel. I stopped writing and stopped thinking about what I’m going to write about. And now I haven’t been writing for the past three years. This has never happened to me before. I always write. But this time, three years, nothing.

DW: Mental block? So how do you spend your time?

SHA: Reading. And WhatsApp – messages and all kinds of stuff there.

CN: But you still give political advice.

SHA: I am still involved politically. But I don’t go out for campaigns. I attend all the political bureau meetings and the central committee meetings. I take active part in that. I’ve already said many times to myself that I must give up. But if I don’t get involved, I can’t follow developments first-hand. So I still attend.

Advice for the younger generation

CN: What general statement would you like to leave behind now for the younger generation? How would you advise the younger generation?

SHA: One, to follow developments, especially political developments in the country. They should be interested in politics.

Number two, they should read. I think young people now read less and less than perhaps ever before. And what they should do is to read more, and that will help them to understand political developments better.

We should develop among the youth the knowledge and concern for the country’s development, for society’s development and the future. And not to leave it just to politicians.

CN: Well, but that’s precisely what has happened. The youth went out in droves to vote.

SHA: Yes, because they lack understanding of politics and don’t read, they just follow.

DW: You think that’s what happened? Because of the lack of understanding, because they’re not reading, they’re merely following?

SHA: Yes, they’re following. As I said earlier, some of them just follow the school teachers, the parents. They just follow their parents. And they can’t think for themselves.

Too early, too early perhaps, voting at 18. Unless, of course, the education system itself, right from the beginning, teaches them to think, to read and all that. There’s not enough of that.

DW: What about the values? Are they too steeped into the whole ethnic discourse?

SHA: The conservative and the Western values are still there. You know, the values for justice are not really there.

As pointed out by some people, if there is somebody in your group who is discriminated or suppressed, you’re not concerned because you are not the victim. So, in other words, you punya hal lah – bukan I (your problem, not mine).

There’s not enough feeling to defend justice. And this is important: I think defending justice is important.

And ethnic discrimination, religious discrimination is something that is taken not only as given, you know, but also as something that should be fought for. So, we don’t care about ethnic discrimination. We don’t care about justice.

We have to educate our youth about fighting for justice, and [to] fight discrimination, not to discriminate [against] others based on race or religion, or based on our differences.

CN: Well, that is a very important advice, and a very interesting interview, Pak Syed. Thank you very much. Till we meet again.

Cecilia Ng is a life member of the Malaysian Social Science Association. Diana Wong is with Pusat Sejarah Rakyat (the People’s History Centre) in Kuala Lumpur

Courtesy of Southeast Asian Social Science Review Vol 9, No 2, 2024, pp 123-144, ISSN 0128-0406, e-ISSN 2550-2298

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